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Alister McGrath and Joanna McGrath

The Dawkins Delusion

In The God Delusion Richard Dawkins lauched a no-holds-barred attack on all types of religion. In The Dawkins Delusion Alister McGrath demonstrates some of the faults with Dawkins' book. In particular he shows how Dawkins clearly goes over the top with some of his claims, and that most religions are nothing like the stereotypes which Dawkins describes. The trouble is that that's about all there is to this book. McGrath criticises Dawkins for not being particularly scholarly in his attack, but this book is hardly a scholarly rebuttal - there's too much indignation for one thing, and what is worse there's no index

Also McGrath uses some pretty weak arguments at times, for instance the claim that Dawkins stance actually helps the Intelligent Design movement - ignoring the fact that Dawkins had dealt with this claim in his book. The Dawkins Delusion might make a good antidote for those in danger of taking Dawkins too seriously, and at times there is some reasonable argument - in particular the first half of chapter 4, looking at the evil done in the name of religion. But overall I get the feeling that a small amount of good material was quickly expanded to give a book length response to Dawkins.

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Fundamental flaws throughout **
The problems arise immediately, even before opening the book. McGrath is off to a poor start with the title of the book (which betrays his animosity for Dawkins in an otherwise superficially congenial book). He implies that Dawkins (henceforth RD) is delusional about god. A delusion is defined (Amer Heritage Dict) as "A false belief strongly held in spite of invalidating evidence". So, then, what belief is the author referring to? There isn't one. It is actually lack of belief. But even if you can be delusional about a lack of belief (e.g. George Bush doesn't exist), it still won't apply. What is the "invalidating evidence" for RD's lack of belief? In other words, to call his lack of belief in god "delusional", very powerful evidence for god's existence must be presented. Otherwise, it's just petty name-calling. Not surprisingly, there is none of that powerful evidence presented. He obsessively refers to "evidence", "scientific rigor", "rationality", and other scientific catch phrases in a pathetic hope that by saying them repeatedly, it will almost appear as if those concepts were actually applied. He knows that his readers (mostly believers) want to consider themselves rational and clear thinkers who rely on evidence (who doesn't?). It's easy for a believer to miss the fact that no evidence for the existence of god is actually presented. But he, as a former scientist and current Oxford theologian, is most likely fully aware of that glaring omission. This makes him disingenuous, at best.

One need not go any further than the subtitle to find yet another foundational flaw of the book: the use of the term "Fundamentalist". It is a term that doesn't apply to a lack of a belief. Atheism is simply the lack of a belief in god. So what, then, separates a "fundie" atheist from a regular atheist? They both go as far as you can in their lack of belief (absolutely none). Simply put, there are no "fundamental" beliefs to be a "fundamentalist" about. "Atheism is the absence of belief in gods, nothing more and nothing less, so there is nothing "fundamental" for atheists to "get back to" in order to achieve a more pure or original atheism." (from about.com). This would seem a minor problem if it were confined to the cover of the book. Unfortunately, the baseless theme of "atheist fundamentalism" is one of the underlying theses of the whole book. Yet, I continued on.

The next foundational flaw involves no less than the whole purpose of the book. He states that he doesn't want to refute every point in TGD, just certain points. How convenient and utterly dishonest! He claims that a devastatingly comprehensive point by point refutation is within his capabilities but would be too boring. Also, one would think that, given the brevity of his book, he would use only his most powerful and convincing arguments. Well, if these are his best points, then his ability to completely dismantle RDs book is suspect, to say the least (The debate they had has verified this). But let's take a closer look at a few of the details.

1)"Religion has made a comeback" (p 8): Even if everyone believed in god, it would not make it true.
2) "I was...totally persuaded of the truth...of atheism" (p 9): He repeatedly invokes his supposedly atheist roots as though it gives him more credibility. (It's irrelevant. Should spend the few pages on logic and evidence)
3) He calls RD an "aggressive antireligious propagandist with an apparent disregard for evidence" (p 12): Yet he provides none of this counter-evidence (while at the same time insulting him, as he does throughout the book).

4) Recounts a story in which "a very angry young man" (an atheist whose "faith" was shaken) accosted him after a lecture because AM "had demonstrated , by rigorous use of scientific, historical, and philosophical arguments" that RD's case against god falls apart. Again, just keep *saying* it's evidence-based. Maybe nobody will notice that it's not there. (prove me wrong). Plus, it's irrelevant (and, at least to me, sounds like BS).

5) He willfully misrepresents the Santa Claus analogy (p 20), calling it "flawed" because people never start believing in Santa as adults. Analogies are meant to compare similar aspects of 2 different things that are otherwise dissimilar. The intent is to gain a deeper understanding of the thing that is in question by comparing it to something that is more understood. Examples are the heart as a pump or the eye as a camera. All analogies break down at some level (yes, all). The whole point of the analogy is that neither belief (god or Santa) is based on evidence. That's it.

6) An entire chapter (that's a quarter of the book) is devoted to debunking a claim that RD never made (Ch2, Has science disproved god). RD clearly states that he cannot definitively disprove god (both in his book and in interviews and debates).

7) In Ch 3(Origins of Religion), he attacks the concept of the meme. Again, irrelevant. This is the either/or fallacy. If memes didn't do it, it must have been divine revelation. He once again fails to give any evidence at all for his own position. Thus, Ch 3 is also off the mark.

8) Religion/the bible isn't all bad. It says nice things too. True, but he misses the point (again). The point is (sigh) there's enough bad in it to make it seem unlikely that the bible is the source of our morals. This, incidentally, renders another entire chapter superfluous (Ch 4, Is Religion Evil).

There isn't room enough to catalogue all the basic flaws but I think the ones I have outlined show that the book does not achieve its stated purpose. Bottom line is this: This is a rebuttal book without a rebuttal. It's like non-adhesive tape or a car that won't run. Its fundamental intended purpose is not fulfilled. In other words, it failed. 2 stars (vs 1) because I was impressed that he can write an entire rebuttal essay without addressing any of the key points of the argument in which he intends to rebut. Plus he is a good writer and superficially civil. PS, I welcome comments, especially from those who vote that this review is not helpful.

 
An Intelligent Community Initiative Top 500 Book *****
An extremely lucid analysis of Dawkins' book. While not a point-by-point refutation of the Dawkins argument, as McGrath readily admits on page 13, "The Dawkins Delusion" goes in a different direction, taking a bird's eye view of the Dawkins book, replying to it in broad strokes. And quite successfully at that. Practically every page has some sort of quotable "aha!" insight into subtle problems with the Dawkins line of argument, which would not be available necessarily to every reader of "The God Delusion".

Here are just three examples: on pages 28 and 29, McGrath points out that the supposed improbability of God, if true, would not necessarily entail God's nonexistence, in the same way that the actual improbability of human existence does not demonstrate that we do not exist! A brilliant analogy, so obvious when made, yet not necessarily apparent at the outset. A second example focuses on Dawkins's highly-refined ability to smuggle in metaphysical statements in seemingly empirical observations (using the power of "enthymeme", which we cover extensively in our book), demonstrated on pages 36 and 37 with a rewrite of a Dawkins paragraph in "The Selfish Gene" by Oxford physiologist and systems biologist Denis Noble. And a third example is on pages 42 and 43, taking apart point by point the surveys supposedly demonstrating that scientists are less religious than they were before.

And on and on it goes. We highly recommend this book to all who are interested in opening their mind on this important debate.
 
Why did I waste my time with this book? *
What was McGrath trying to accomplish with this book? Perhaps she was trying to preach to the converted, who will surely try to find solace in someone responding to Dawkins marvelous book in writing, even if their rants don't make any sense at all.

I honestly believe that McGrath was only trying to capitalize in those who will buy her book and shelve it as a "response" to Dawkins, without ever reading it.

It's sad that people even take this propaganda writer seriously, I know I won't be doing it again!

Ignacio
 
Dawkins Delusion *****
Finally, a sufficient answer to Dawkins 'God Delusion'. Dawkins has perhaps become the worlds best-known atheist, noted for his hostile and controversial views on religion. Head-to-head, this wonderfully argued book takes some of Dawkins' central assumptions and brilliantly exposes their invalidity.

Alister McGrath is a highly articulate and satisfying writer, capable of explaining difficult ideas to his audiences.

Although the book may not convert atheists, they will surely be mortified. I was astounded to see the most prominent atheist of all - Richard Dawkins, to be exposed. Many of his inaccuracies are revealed and ridiculed point by point.

A must read for theists and atheists (and agnostics for that matter) alike.
 
The McGrath Delusion *
This slimmest of slim volumes promises much but delivers little. The tone in the introduction is one of quiet reason and fair appraisal and gave me the impression that the rest of the book might contain some real substance. Alarm bells started to ring however on the first page of the first chapter - the author's somewhat boastful anecdote in which he claims to have converted an atheist by the power of his debate just does not ring true. In any case the "rigorous use of scientific, historical and philosophical arguments" is nowhere in evidence in what follows.

After the preliminary praise for Dawkins' work, which makes McGrath sound like a fair and unbiased commentator, one slowly becomes aware of the metal fist of intolerance lurking within the velvet glove. McGrath is in fact guilty of everything that he accuses Dawkins of - selectivity, unscholarly procedure, naivete, and ignorance. Yes, ignorance! Can you believe that he accuses Dawkins, of all people, of that. It is a serious under-estimation of Dawkins and does nothing to diminish the feeling that the authors are just a tad hypocritical.

In fact, the whole tract is a major exercise in pot calling kettle black.

After stating that "There can be no question of scientific 'proof' of ultimate questions" he then takes Dawkins to task for not providing any.

Nowhere will you find any convincing arguments for belief in God. (The best that the McGraths seem to offer is that the fact that so many people believe in God points to His existence. I hardly need to point out the fatuousness of that position!) In the time-honoured tradition of Christian apologists everywhere it is all negative evidence - they go for semantic arguments and try to find the devil in the detail rather than putting up a good case for their own position.

This glorified pamphlet bears about the same relationship to Dawkins' book as a blood-sucking remora to a mighty shark. It conjures up the absurd image of an even slimmer volume entitled "The McGrath Delusion" followed by a series of ever tackier scribblings, perhaps ending with a single line that says "Huh! I'm right and you are wrong!"

The idea of "atheist fundamentalism", which appears throughout this book is redundant and erroneous. As A.C. Grayling has pointed out, what would a non-fundamentalist atheist believe? That there might be a God in certain circumstances? Anyone who uses this term can have no claim to being unbiased and non-polemical. [...].
 
Oh dear...... *
I've been an atheist for 30 of my 56 years. I believe in lots of things but I don't believe there is a divine creator. I've got an open mind (I hope!) so I read Alister McGrath's little book to get some insight into religious belief. I'm even more confused!I really don't understand what all the fuss is about unless theists are feeling threatened. I've given McGrath's book 1 star because it did tell me something my benign Roman Catholic childhood did not - that the concept of Christ redeeming our sins was an Augustinian invention and not something which came from Christ himself. So I did learn something. Can someone please point me to a book which will dispassionately and objectively discuss the evidence for a creator?
 
Poor effort **
Alister McGrath's effort is a poor work of criticism, i am an atheist (former christian) and i decided to read this book as Prof McGrath was coming to my university to attack Dawkins. I was utterly frustrated that this book and his subsequent lecture was essentialy not an arguement against Dawkins ideas, but literacy critiscim, going on about how poorly written it was, or how damaging this book was to the secular agenda. Nothing at all was a response to the core arguements in the God Delusion, this man made money from Dawkins name and an overlong critical review with no depth. When will there be a decent response from the God-Bods, i suppose never because they can't.
 
Looking in the wrong place! *
I have not read this particular book but I have read 'Dawkins' God' by McGrath and although I desperately hoped something would leap from the pages and demolish Dawkins' bigotry I am afraid I was disappointed. In the light of all which has been said by parties of both camps i.e. theists and non-theists I suggest you read 'Evolution Under the Microscope' by David Swift. Swift is a British scientist and micro-biologist. If after reading it you still think the unimaginable, utterly improbable complexity of biochemical systems could have arisen by purposeless freaky mutations of the genetic code, then you deserve to be labelled a Darwinist.
 
Dawkins weak on science, wrong on religion *****
Everyone who reads The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins should read McGrath's The Dawkins Delusion, which refutes Dawkins-the-philosopher. I agree with McGrath's decision to rush out a quick refutation that points out Dawkins's most fatal flaw: that he abandons evidence, using instead wide, wild, and sweeping statements that are not scientifically supported (e.g., that the question of the existence of God is a purely scientific question, which for Dawkins is now settled: science has proved that God does not exist. But science proves no such thing, say most scientists). Nor do Dawkins' premises justify the further conclusions that he tries to draw from them.

As far as reasoning and evidence go, McGrath gets the better of Dawkins. Some reviewers do not see it that way. I invite such reviewers to read McGrath again. Any disagreement with him must be justified by evidence, not by sweeping general statements.

Dawkins got a good press from his peers in the past as a serious scientist. However, McGrath indicates that the reaction of many scientists to The God Delusion is simply to cringe at Dawkins' failure as a thinker, once he steps outside pure science (as he does all the time in The God Delusion) and tries to draw sociological or religious conclusions from Darwinian science. What makes it even worse for Dawkins is that he must hold that sociology and religion are the results of Darwinian evolution, since only what comes by Darwinian evolution can exist. But Dawkins does not bring forward one shred of evidence to show how mind, thinking, the very ability to do science, could have evolved according to Darwinian evolution. So that seems to rule out the real existence of sociology and religion. Dawkins traps himself inescapably in this blind alley, because, as he repeatedly declares (without proof) Darwinian evolution explains everything.

May I be allowed to add two points not addressed in McGrath's all-too-brief critique of Dawkins?

Dawkins says, in what McGrath calls "the most important chapter" in the book The God Delusion, on the 'Roots of Religion' (p. 234), "It is fascinating to guess that the cult of Christianity almost certainly began in very much the same way" [as the 'cargo cults' of Pacific Melanesia and New Guinea, mostly in the 1940s and 1950s, immediately after the Second World War], "and spread initially at the same high speed". This observation displays Dawkins' total ignorance of his topic. It is ludicrous. Christianity is the fulfilment of an 1800-year development of Hebrew/Israelite/Jewish religion, and Christianity spread slowly and painfully for three hundred years before gaining civic acceptance in the Roman Empire, and has lived now for two thousand years. Judaism and Christianity developed in highly sophisticated Jewish/Mesopotamian/Egyptian/Near Eastern/Roman/Greek civilizations. On the other hand, the 'cargo cults' developed in totally backward, unsophisticated backwaters of isolated Pacific regions, sometimes lasting for just a few years at a time.

Again, on pages 339,340, Dawkins' understanding of Darwinism forces him to reject the idea that there is anything that clearly separates human beings from non-human animals. Do Dawkins' disciples realize this? It is bad science and catastrophic philosophy/sociology/religion, yet Dawkins develops and defends the point relentlessly. Taking as proved the existence of 'intermediate species' between brute beasts and us humans, he asks the question: "Would these [intermediate] creatures 'count as human' or not?" Dawkins replies (p. 340) that only some 'absolutists' "must answer the question, in order to apply the moral principle of granting humans unique and special status because they are human" (Dawkins puts the last four words in italics (p.340). He goes on: " ... the gradual continuity that is an inescapable feature of biological evolution tells us that there must be some intermediate who would lie sufficiently close to the 'borderline' to blur the moral principle and destroy its absoluteness. A better way to say this is that there are no natural borderlines in evolution. The illusion of a borderline is created by the fact that the evolutionary intermediates happen to be extinct. Of course, it could be argued that humans are more capable of, for example, suffering than other species. This could well be true, and we might legitimately give humans special status by virtue of it." (Understand what Dawkins is saying: the only reason that he can find for granting human beings any 'unique and special status' 'because they are human', is that the human may be more conscious of suffering than the brute beast. This extreme view must be highlighted and condemned. Dawkins continues: "But evolutionary continuity shows that there is no absolute (in italics) distinction." (Understand Dawkins: There is no absolute distinction between human beings and brute beasts - or any other of the now-lost 'intermediate species'.) Dawkins goes on: "Absolutist moral discrimination is devastatingly undermined by the fact of evolution. An uneasy awareness of this fact might, indeed, underlie one of the main motives creationists have for opposing evolution: they fear what they believe to be its moral consequences. They are wrong to do so" [Are they really? Then I am free to judge Dawkins the same way that I judge a brute beast] "but, in any case, it is surely very odd to think that a truth about the real world can be reversed by considerations of what would be morally desirable." Really? Law and order would collapse otherwise. Morality is a truth of the real world.

Ruse and Wilson, `respected giants in this field' of moral philosophy and science, find it "easy to conceive of an alien intelligent species evolving rules its members consider highly moral but which are repugnant to human beings, such as cannibalism, incest, the love of darkness and decay, parricide and the eating of faeces ... " (quoted in Latham's The Naked Emperor, pp, 154,155). Dawkins' reasoning above forces him to accept such a scenario as unobjectionable morally for us humans now.
 
God-awful Offal *
The Dawkins Delusion is yet another sorry attempt to defend Christianity. It uses the false dichotomy style employed by lovers of all things ID. Of course, it is easier to criticise another's work than come up with a convincing theory of your own, also handy if your theory isn't convincing in the first place. Unfortunately McGrath's criticisms are invalid at best, but usually ridiculous - the Santa Claus passage (if you need it explained to you why this argument is ludicrous you probably do need God in your life!) and his idea that a belief in God is not a fundamental constituent to Christianity are two examples.



This book was given to me by a Christian, and that is a shame as it does more to damage Christianity than support it. The fact that some Christians are thinking this a good rebuttal of Dawkins' God Delusion is as much worrying as it is sorry.



I do agree with the author that The GD is an aggressive and at times angry diatribe of religious belief which I'm sure many Christians find grating. That should not, however, take anything away from Dawkins' arguments which he constructs much more coherently than McGrath's.



It is about time that the Christian fraternity got real, held up their hands and said "We know we can't prove our belief, that's what faith is. We know that it sounds stupid, that it is devoid of logical thought or common sense, but we're gonna do it anyway", and stop writing pointless books that suggest the above anyway.



Do not waste your money buying this book...just wait for a dim-witted pious gibbon to give you one.
 
A Book Atheists Like Me Want You To Read *
If this is the best one can do in challenging the ideas of Mr. Dawkins, then he really has nothing to worry about. But of course better books and essays can, and I am sure will be written in reply to some of the more interesting ideas Richard Dawkins has set out in The God Delusion.

However there is no need to catalog here the errors and frailties of The Dawkins Delusion, as a gentleman by the name of Dan J. Bye of the Sheffield Humanist society has written an excellent essay listing at length the errors and weaknesses of The Dawkins Delusion, which can be found here:

http://homepages.shu.ac.uk/~llrdjb/shs/delusion.html

It is an interesting read and the gentleman has certainly done his homework.

As for The Dawkins Delusion, well, it is kind of pathetic. As an atheist I look forward to reading challenges to the more interesting ideas advanced by Mr. Dawkins such as the notion that it is child abuse to indoctrinate young children into any religious faith given that young children lack any real capacity to engage in critical thought about such weighty matters. Saying to Mr. Dawkins words to the effect of: "OH Yeah? Well reading kids your book would also be child abuse then, wouldn't it?" is hardly a compelling comeback, but about the only one I could find from the Mcgraths. That of course is just one example of not meeting Mr. Dawkins head on.

Anyway, the only thing reading this book made me want to do it to go back and re-read The God Delusion, if only to prove to myself that even I could have written a better book in rebuttal. (I have also heard about a book called The Dawkins Letters, so I think that would be interesting to read.)




 
a fair-minded rebuttal to Dawkins *****
I'll keep my remarks brief, like the McGraths' little book. I agree with the basic premise that science and religion are not incompatible, and that Dawkin's book is a badly flawed tome that displays an appallingly superficial misunderstanding of the religious side of the issue. Dawkins' book is offensive in the extreme to readers like myself who are not naive about science, the scientific method, empirical evidence, and so on, but who also realize that religion offers a complementary approach to life's most fundamental questions. Vitriolic assaults such as Dawkins' say far more about the attacker than about the object of the attack. "Dawkin's Delusion?" is, among other good things, a lesson in civilized response.
 
Absolute garbage *
I have read both sides of the argument and it simply comes down to this; if you think critically and question the role of "faith" in mankind's development, you'll end up leaning towards Dawkins world-view. If, on the other hand, you allow yourself to give things "up to faith", there is no hope of ever agreeing with Dawkins because he strongly opposes any behavior associated with "faith".

This book does not really address the fundamental problems with religion (and not just Christian) and it is a poor response to Dawkins' book. It is sure to be seen in a bargin bin very soon.
 
Richard Dawkins, you're mean! ****
To be fair to the believers among us, I decided to look for a critical response to the God Delusion, preferably written by a well educated, non-theologian who could make relevant arguments without quoting the bible. McGrath seemed to fit the bill in this regard. However at only 65 pages, this book falls a bit short and the author merely flails at Dawkins, hardly having time to mount any sort of real rebuttal. Many of the points Mcgrath makes are indeed true, eg. Dawkins can be nasty and does quote a few outdated sources. However the author fails to make any justification for his belief in a supernatural being, which is really the key issue in the debate. Interestingly he calls the now famous "orbiting teapot" analogy ridiculous but fails to explain why an omnipotent magical being is any less ridiculous.
Anyone fascinated by the whole "God" debate should, in all fairness, read this book if only to reassure yourself that the true believers really don't have any leg to stand on.
 
Scholarly counter-balance to Dawkins' Rhetoric *****
Professor McGrath brings a much needed rebuttal of best selling "The God Delusion" written by Oxford Professor and celebrated atheist Richard Dawkins. Richard Dawkins is a gifted scientist and a talented writer, but any serious minded person reading "The God Delusion" will quickly be aware that this book was the product of emotional rhetoric rather than scholarly study. Professor McGrath on the other hand gives careful research and consideration in the things that he writes. Even Richard Dawkins would admit that.

Now to the book "The Dawkins Delusion." In the introduction Professor McGrath writes, "When I read The God Delusion I was both saddened and troubled. How, I wondered, could such a gifted popularizer of the natural sciences, who once had such a passionate concern for the objective analysis of evidence, turn into such an aggressive anti-religious propagandist, with an apparent disregard for evidence that is not favourable to his case?" On page 25 Alister McGrath writes,..."Dawkins seems to view things from within a highly polarised world view that is no less apocalyptic and warped than that of the religious fundamentalisms he wishes to eradicate." It is this attitude that has resulted in Dawkins losing objectivity to the extent that he equates belief in God with belief in Santa Claus or the tooth fairy. Whoever heard of an adult coming to a belief in Santa Claus?

Elsewhere McGrath has pointed out Dawkins' lack of research. He writes, "His inept engagement with Luther shows up how Dawkins abandons even the pretence of rigorous evidence based scholarship. Anecdote is substituted for evidence; selective internet-trawling for quotes, displaces rigorous and comprehensive engagement with primary sources. In this book Dawkins throws the conventions of academic scholarship to the winds; he wants to write a work of propaganda, and consequently treats the accurate rendition of religion as an inconvenient impediment to his chief agenda, which is the intellectual and cultural destruction of religion."

Basically this short book exposes major flaws in Dawkins' arguments and expresses what I suspect the majority of scientists would think about The God Delusion that it degrades the scientific professions to the level of schoolboy mud-slinging argument. Indeed literary critic Terry Eagleton has savaged Dawkins' book and Professor Michael Ruse, himself an atheist, declares that The God Delusion makes him embarrassed to be an atheist. There are many others in the scientific community who have expressed similar sentiments.

Recently I viewed the official Richard Dawkins website and was horrified to see a petition already signed by nearly 10,000 people seeking for the banning of faith schools here in the UK. This is chillingly akin to the aetheistic Soviet government of Stalin's day. All the more reason for the sane writings of people like Alister McGrath.

The Dawkins Delusion is a worthwhile buy for serious minded thinkers and will bring necessary counter balance to the wild rhetoric of The God Delusion.

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